Tense
Talk about the insanely deep lore of the Dark Souls universe or pvp etc. 

I really wanted to discuss the lore introduced in the Ringed City DLC of DS3 and how it ties in the big lore questions of DS1. Specifically, the talk about ending the so-called curse of the undead and the cycle of fire and darkness. I personally didn't like the way they handled it. To me is sounded like there was no solution to the cycle and the only way was to escape reality by creating an artificial world inside the painted world. . . or whatever they were going on about. Originally, I thought the lore of DS1 made it clear that the only way forward was to simply let the flames die out and embrace the darkness, as that was the natural progression of the world. The age of dark, would be the age of man. But it sounds like, in DS3 they forced an outcome which was usually left open ended; as in, they forced a "light the fire ending" in the lore. 
AND DEY SAY ZULUL AND DEY SAY ZULUL AND DEY SAY ZULUL
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Mendicant Bias
Tense wrote:
Talk about the insanely deep lore of the Dark Souls universe or pvp etc. 

I really wanted to discuss the lore introduced in the Ringed City DLC of DS3 and how it ties in the big lore questions of DS1. Specifically, the talk about ending the so-called curse of the undead and the cycle of fire and darkness. I personally didn't like the way they handled it. To me is sounded like there was no solution to the cycle and the only way was to escape reality by creating an artificial world inside the painted world. . . or whatever they were going on about. Originally, I thought the lore of DS1 made it clear that the only way forward was to simply let the flames die out and embrace the darkness, as that was the natural progression of the world. The age of dark, would be the age of man. But it sounds like, in DS3 they forced an outcome which was usually left open ended; as in, they forced a "light the fire ending" in the lore. 


DS1 was the start of Gwyn's disastrous monster-fuck-of reality so there wasn't any knowledge of prolonged effects linking the fire would have no that simply walking away doesn't resolve the unnatural circumstance as someone else would simply link the flame eventually.  Even so Gwyn tied Humanity to the state of the Flame so as it weakens the Darksign and undead manifest as a push for humanity to link the Flame or slowly degenerate unto feral undead. The Age of Dark did come naturally until Gwyn unnaturally started the concept of linking the Flame, starting The Way of White as a religion built upon the concept and convincing his children to round up humanity for said purpose.

What you need to focus on is Aldia's dialogue in context of The Ringed City, i'll try to let you figure it out before spilling the goods, oh watch " Angels Egg " as well.

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Aldia

Young Hollow, there are but two paths. Inherit the order of this world, or destroy it.

Heheh, I believe we've been acquainted.
Young Hollow, conqueror of fear.
What drives you so, to overcome this supposed curse?

Once, the Lord of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from humanity.
And men assumed a fleeting form.
These are the roots of our world.
Men are props on the stage of life, and no matter how tender, how exquisite...
A lie will remain a lie.
Young Hollow, knowing this, do you still desire peace?

Peace grants men the illusion of life.
Shackled by falsehoods, they yearn for love, unaware of its grand illusion.
Until, the curse touches their flesh.
We are bound by this yoke.
As true as the Dark that churns within men.

All men trust fully the illusion of life.
But is this so wrong?
A construction, a facade, and yet...
A world full of warmth and resplendence.
Young Hollow, are you intent on shattering the yoke, spoiling this wonderful falsehood?

 
 



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Ringed City Hollow

There wilt thou the sleeping Princess awaken."

"... Her slumber is a deceit ..."

"A lid covering an overgrown privy: a prop to keep thee from the dark soul of thine desire."




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to me is sounded like there was no solution to the cycle and the only way was to escape reality by creating an artificial world inside the painted world. . . or whatever they were going on about. in DS3 they forced an outcome which was usually left open ended; as in, they forced a "light the fire ending" in the lore.



You are right, there isn't a solution to the cycle as Humanity is forever bound to link the Flame which will forever give diminishing returns hence the end of time in DS3. Dark Souls 2 focused on this point directly which is why Aldia somehow picked up on Seathe's train of though and sought to create a hybrid which would exists outside of the cycle. What Aldia did to himself to get this immunity is unknown though he looks like a bundle of tree roots set aflame by chaos.....   However by the events of DS3 this becomes known hence Kaathe's plot for the manifestation of The Dark Lord finally coming into proper play with the Sable Church's plot for you to usurp the flame, which is the actual ending .  By taking the First Flame as your own this could be divided among men thus breaking Gwyn's chain of events otherwise the Flame will eventually reset itself as narrated.



This is one of the few things actually explained in DS3 which is rather depressing as the game seems less developed than DS2 was initially. I think implementing fast travel from the start instead of building an interconnected world is what screwed the series lore.
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Tense


DS1 was the start of Gwyn's disastrous monster-fuck-of reality so there wasn't any knowledge of prolonged effects linking the fire would have no that simply walking away doesn't resolve the unnatural circumstance as someone else would simply link the flame eventually.  Even so Gwyn tied Humanity to the state of the Flame so as it weakens the Darksign and undead manifest as a push for humanity to link the Flame or slowly degenerate unto feral undead. The Age of Dark did come naturally until Gwyn unnaturally started the concept of linking the Flame, starting The Way of White as a religion built upon the concept and convincing his children to round up humanity for said purpose.

What you need to focus on is Aldia's dialogue in context of The Ringed City, i'll try to let you figure it out before spilling the goods, oh watch " Angels Egg " as well.




You are right, there isn't a solution to the cycle as Humanity is forever bound to link the Flame which will forever give diminishing returns hence the end of time in DS3. Dark Souls 2 focused on this point directly which is why Aldia somehow picked up on Seathe's train of though and sought to create a hybrid which would exists outside of the cycle. What Aldia did to himself to get this immunity is unknown though he looks like a bundle of tree roots set aflame by chaos.....   However by the events of DS3 this becomes known hence Kaathe's plot for the manifestation of The Dark Lord finally coming into proper play with the Sable Church's plot for you to usurp the flame, which is the actual ending .  By taking the First Flame as your own this could be divided among men thus breaking Gwyn's chain of events otherwise the Flame will eventually reset itself as narrated.



This is one of the few things actually explained in DS3 which is rather depressing as the game seems less developed than DS2 was initially. I think implementing fast travel from the start instead of building an interconnected world is what screwed the series lore.


I figured that the events of Gwyn fucked shit up. But what I can't shake off is what Kaathe said in DS1, "Soon the flames will fade and only Dark will remain." Like couldn't they just wait long enough for the flames to fully subside? I always thought that letting the flames die out was just putting the age of fire out of its misery; the natural thing to happen even if it wasn't as pleasant at the age of fire. Also, something I found interesting in DS1 was that it seemed that all the lord souls grew weaker over time, with the exception of the Dark Soul. It seemed that the more you tried to suppress it, the stronger the dark grew. Fire will eventually fade, but Dark won't fade, it will merely retreat until. It felt like the Dark was always there but was being held off for a limited amount of time by Gwyn and the lords. (Where does Nito fit into all of this? He really did not seem to give a shit about the fading fires lol)

Aldia is probably the most interesting part of DS2. I still don't get what the purpose of the fake ancient dragon was though. Like before the remastered ending, I always thought that the fake dragon was Aldia after his experimentations to transcend the curse succeeded (or failed?) Either way, could the fake ancient dragon have something to do with Aldia's chaos tree appearance? 

In that quote it seems that hes confirming that the countless relinking of the flames is an almost perpetual lie over the world. By fleeting form, I guess hes saying that after the age of fire was created, humans took on our "normal" humanoid forms which is actually not our true forms. Perhaps, prior to the age of fire, humans would look like the dark monsters from DS2. I guess what hes referring to is the form of Manus. Although I always assumed that Manus only took that form after his humanity began to "run wild" as they say. IIRC Manus' grave was in the shape of a normal sized human. Interesting. 

Trying to connect the Aldia speech to Ringed City, it sounds like what Aldia is saying is that we can break the cycle, but that by breaking it, we will get rid of the warmth and goodness that comes with it. But how does that connect with the Ringed City ending? 

Yea that slumber thing was a cover-up. What was Slave Knight Gael's purpose? And where does the titular Dark Soul itself fit in with the ending of the Ringed City? Like I know it was a single soul that was split up and gifted to every human descendent of the original dark lord. But what of it? Like I feel like the Dark Soul should be addressed in some way at the end of things in the DLC.
AND DEY SAY ZULUL AND DEY SAY ZULUL AND DEY SAY ZULUL
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Mendicant Bias
Tense wrote:


I figured that the events of Gwyn fucked shit up. But what I can't shake off is what Kaathe said in DS1, "Soon the flames will fade and only Dark will remain." Like couldn't they just wait long enough for the flames to fully subside? I always thought that letting the flames die out was just putting the age of fire out of its misery; the natural thing to happen even if it wasn't as pleasant at the age of fire.


You know Gwyn fucked up but don't include his action in your thought process haha, it's being sidestep.  The Age of Dark was already happening as the First Flame started to subside, this is when Gwyn had the marvelous idea of burning his soul into the flame as fuel yet Humanity was thrown into the Flame as well. After he linked the Flame everything was good until it started to wane again only this time Humans felt the effects thus rationalizing (with promotion from the Way of White) need to link the Flame with our own souls and Humanity. Notice how with each game what we use as Humanity degenerates over time to effigies and literal bones due to eons of diminishing effects.

Kaathe was only postulating a solution for a problem he hadn't encountered before, as the stories of Aldia and Vendrick within DS2 show how neither action matters and only further enslaves humanity.

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Also, something I found interesting in DS1 was that it seemed that all the lord souls grew weaker over time, with the exception of the Dark Soul. It seemed that the more you tried to suppress it, the stronger the dark grew. Fire will eventually fade, but Dark won't fade, it will merely retreat until. It felt like the Dark was always there but was being held off for a limited amount of time by Gwyn and the lords. (Where does Nito fit into all of this? He really did not seem to give a shit about the fading fires lol)


When the lords took their Soul fragments each faction seems to have gotten an aspect of life per each soul at least the lore community rationalizes such.

-Gwyn and his kin got the "Light" soul being directly affected with the intensity of The First Flame
- Quella (?) and the Witches got "Life" which was abused into Chaos.
- Nito (assumingly a giant) got the "Death " soul
- With Humanity last with their speck of a "Dark " Soul

Props for thinking about Nito as he was the only faction with zero elaboration or relevance past DS1 which is an utter shame. Tomb of the Giants had a frustratingly wonderful level design and story within. Crazy how Gwyn had zero issue with a damn grim reaper yet such utter disdain and fear of Humanity even when they too fought against the Dragons.


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Aldia is probably the most interesting part of DS2. I still don't get what the purpose of the fake ancient dragon was though. Like before the remastered ending, I always thought that the fake dragon was Aldia after his experimentations to transcend the succeeded (or failed?) Either way, could the fake ancient dragon have something to do with Aldia's chaos tree appearance? 


Do you mean the DLC ending or is there something i've missed out on? Both of the DS2 DLCs were phenomenal having absolutely saved the game's as from the old kingdoms displaced in time to Aldia, everything was juicy. Unfortunately everything of significance which was introduce was absolutely discarded in DS3 Aldia is something i'll forever be bitter about along with the plot of Dark Queens gaining power and working towards the "day of judgement". Like........ they missed some prime material by completely ignoring DS2 yet the same could be said of DS2 about DS1..


A Dragon Bone and Giant Soul were used in the creation of the Ancient Dragon which was an experiment of using a Giant soul to create life as they are outside the circle as are Dragons.  I can't act like the exact method for how Shannolatte was created is known or understood but this is the basic principle governing her creation.
Have zero clue about Aldia's appearance other than he appears tiny at the Dragons Avery while massive during his final fight before the Kiln.


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In that quote it seems that hes confirming that the countless relinking of the flames is an almost perpetual lie over the world.
I guess what hes referring to is the form of Manus


*Grins* Extraordinarily close but not quite true, what else was encountered within the DLC aside from Manus.   Think about Dark manifesting in it's raw,unbound, natal state (not the Abyss)

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By fleeting form, I guess hes saying that after the age of fire was created, humans took on our "normal" humanoid forms which is actually not our true forms.


Yes, now does unshackled,raw Humanity look like? How does it behave?

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Perhaps, prior to the age of fire, humans would look like the dark monsters from DS2.


Which monsters specifically? You aren't necessarily wrong however what i assume is being referenced is but one endgame (other being Ringed City Knights) of Humanity not the actual natal state.


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Trying to connect the Aldia speech to Ringed City, it sounds like what Aldia is saying is that we can break the cycle, but that by breaking it, we will get rid of the warmth and goodness that comes with it.

You are ALMOST there literally on the knife's edge of revelation, look back at the emphasized parts of Aldia's dialogue i quoted and once again watch Angel's Egg.
I've given you everything needed to figure it out in the first post and now this mere statement 🙂


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But how does that connect with the Ringed City ending? 
Yea that slumber thing was a cover-up.


You keep nonchalantly stating things then asking how everything connects the answer is literally in your subconscious at this point hahaha.  Watch Angels egg!! Another mindfuck for you the weapon/armor dropped by Halflight Spear of the Church read this....

A short bow crafted with white birch. Endowed with light-manipulating magic.
The bow is a relic from an ancient land of sorceries that was swallowed by the Abyss, most known for its folktale of the heroic Abysswalker.

Ordinary garb from an ancient land of sorcery. The gold embellishments betray a faint residue of magic, but this clothing was never intended for battle.When a mission visited the Ringed City long ago, one of its younger missionaries elected to stay behind. It was he who became the last recorded Spear of the Church.






Besides Quirel you are the sole Archive member i've been able to talk DS with so this has been splendid, can't wait to see how your mind unravels after this. Next we gotta talk about those goddamn angels
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Tense


You know Gwyn fucked up but don't include his action in your thought process haha, it's being sidestep.  The Age of Dark was already happening as the First Flame started to subside, this is when Gwyn had the marvelous idea of burning his soul into the flame as fuel yet Humanity was thrown into the Flame as well. After he linked the Flame everything was good until it started to wane again only this time Humans felt the effects thus rationalizing (with promotion from the Way of White) need to link the Flame with our own souls and Humanity. Notice how with each game what we use as Humanity degenerates over time to effigies and literal bones due to eons of diminishing effects.

Kaathe was only postulating a solution for a problem he hadn't encountered before, as the stories of Aldia and Vendrick within DS2 show how neither action matters and only further enslaves humanity.



When the lords took their Soul fragments each faction seems to have gotten an aspect of life per each soul at least the lore community rationalizes such.

-Gwyn and his kin got the "Light" soul being directly affected with the intensity of The First Flame
- Quella (?) and the Witches got "Life" which was abused into Chaos.
- Nito (assumingly a giant) got the "Death " soul
- With Humanity last with their speck of a "Dark " Soul

Props for thinking about Nito as he was the only faction with zero elaboration or relevance past DS1 which is an utter shame. Tomb of the Giants had a frustratingly wonderful level design and story within. Crazy how Gwyn had zero issue with a damn grim reaper yet such utter disdain and fear of Humanity even when they too fought against the Dragons.




Do you mean the DLC ending or is there something i've missed out on? Both of the DS2 DLCs were phenomenal having absolutely saved the game's as from the old kingdoms displaced in time to Aldia, everything was juicy. Unfortunately everything of significance which was introduce was absolutely discarded in DS3 Aldia is something i'll forever be bitter about along with the plot of Dark Queens gaining power and working towards the "day of judgement". Like........ they missed some prime material by completely ignoring DS2 yet the same could be said of DS2 about DS1..


A Dragon Bone and Giant Soul were used in the creation of the Ancient Dragon which was an experiment of using a Giant soul to create life as they are outside the circle as are Dragons.  I can't act like the exact method for how Shannolatte was created is known or understood but this is the basic principle governing her creation.
Have zero clue about Aldia's appearance other than he appears tiny at the Dragons Avery while massive during his final fight before the Kiln.




*Grins* Extraordinarily close but not quite true, what else was encountered within the DLC aside from Manus.   Think about Dark manifesting in it's raw,unbound, natal state (not the Abyss)



Yes, now does unshackled,raw Humanity look like? How does it behave?



Which monsters specifically? You aren't necessarily wrong however what i assume is being referenced is but one endgame (other being Ringed City Knights) of Humanity not the actual natal state.



You are ALMOST there literally on the knife's edge of revelation, look back at the emphasized parts of Aldia's dialogue i quoted and once again watch Angel's Egg.
I've given you everything needed to figure it out in the first post and now this mere statement 🙂




You keep nonchalantly stating things then asking how everything connects the answer is literally in your subconscious at this point hahaha.  Watch Angels egg!! Another mindfuck for you the weapon/armor dropped by Halflight Spear of the Church read this....

A short bow crafted with white birch. Endowed with light-manipulating magic.
The bow is a relic from an ancient land of sorceries that was swallowed by the Abyss, most known for its folktale of the heroic Abysswalker.

Ordinary garb from an ancient land of sorcery. The gold embellishments betray a faint residue of magic, but this clothing was never intended for battle.When a mission visited the Ringed City long ago, one of its younger missionaries elected to stay behind. It was he who became the last recorded Spear of the Church.






Besides Quirel you are the sole Archive member i've been able to talk DS with so this has been splendid, can't wait to see how your mind unravels after this. Next we gotta talk about those goddamn angels


I'm just gonna be honest, I barely remember the lore from ds3. Last time I played the game was about 2 years ago. I finished the dlc but ended up going back to bloodborne. IIRC the it was because the pvp didn't keep me hooked. Reason why I'm not getting this stuff is because the only game I remember pretty completely was DS1. I remember most of DS2, sunken king and iron king dlc but I don't remember much of the ivory king. DS3 felt less complete lore-wise than ds2.

Tomb of the giants was my favorite level from ds1. I found nito the most interesting of the lords (excluding the dark lord) and I always wondered what exactly he was after. I remember there being a covenant that revolved around gathering those eyeball things to give to Nito. I don't remember what they did tbh. Theres one more thing, what in the world was that giant skull in Ash lake? Ash lake seemed to be an area from a prehistoric time before the flame. It had the great arch trees and even an everlasting dragon. So whatever that skull belonged to, must have been some sort of ancient being from before the age of fire.

I'm talking about the "new" ending, or i guess, yeah the dlc ending. Where you fight aldia after nashandra. What was the deal with his appearance there? For the ancient dragon, I remember the queen called it something along the lines of a "prop" meant to deceive. I know aldia created it. My memory is fuzzy but wasn't aldia working towards the same goal as vendrick; to find a way out of the curse? And aldia's studies led him to use the power of the giants combined with the power of the ancient dragons to create a being that transcends the dark and the fire. I just always assumed that the dragon WAS aldia up until the dlc ending came out and scratched the idea. So what was the purpose of the dragon? Like why was aldia trying to deceive people with it? 

The only other thing in the abyss, other than the corrupted citizens of oolacile, were the humanity sprites. I guess those were the actual forms of man. If I remember correctly, the interesting thing about them was they didn't actually look like they were attacking you. They kind of just got close to you, them coming into contact inflicted damage. Perhaps they didn't actually mean harm to the player and just wanted warmth/or to be with you, but such is the nature of man's true form I guess. We desire warmth and love but can't have it (since we corrupt whatever we touch) This sounds a lot like what Aldia was saying, man wants the warmth of the fire but can't have it.

Oh I meant perhaps humans originally looked like the dark monsters from ds3, not ds2. Those giant dark serpent like things. Interesting that they resembled serpents a bit. Perhaps the primordial serpents, who are constantly trying to manipulate humans, are in some way related to humans. If I remember correctly, there were some statues of primordial serpents in lothric in ds3. It also goes back to an old question about the dark lord ending from ds1, when you become the dark lord, all the serpents, including frampt show up to kneel before you. I mean its kinda comical considering theyre all snakes anyway but still. Its as if, either path you took, the serpents were with you. We obviously don't know what happens for the light the fire ending, since you die, but that's what frampt wanted. And yet hes kneeling before you as you become the dark lord. Perhaps the serpents gain regardless of what happens next. 

Or better yet, perhaps the whole concept of the age of fire and age of dark were all spurred on by the serpents. They were imperfect dragons, so perhaps they were inferior, slaves even, to the everlasting ancient dragons. Perhaps they wanted an end to the superior dragons, they instigated the discovery of the souls of lords which led to the extinction of the dragons, and no matter what happens, they gain. After all, kaathe was literally living in the abyss. So it clearly had no adverse affect on him. And where exactly was frampt sleeping anyway? We never see the ends of their bodies anywhere, only their heads. I remember wondering if what if all the serpents were just part of the same being? Like a multi-headed serpent, where each head acts like a separate entity. 

This brings up another question, the souls of lords were found. So who did they belong to? They were souls after all. IIRC, Nito was the first being to taste death. So idk if these souls belonged to beings dead from before. Or perhaps they belong to being before the dragons? They were inside the first flame. And where did the first flame even come from?

Yea youre gonna have to forgive me, I barely remember the lore from ringed city and even my ds2 knowledge has faded over the years. Im gonna have to go watch some lore videos to brush up.

Btw im watching Angel's Egg right now. 

Have you played Bloodborne? Im thinking of also making a thread about that, but I don't know if many people here have played it.
AND DEY SAY ZULUL AND DEY SAY ZULUL AND DEY SAY ZULUL
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